and me: That is what I was responding to. It would be unethical for me to do so. I advised him that with Jesus help he could choose not to walk that path. There is no excuse for it. People can discuss their thoughts and glaring hypocrisy so that what we are seeing with R.C. Has that been reported on or discussed? 1939 R. C. Sproul was born on February 13, 1939 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA as Robert Charles Sproul. Barbara simply made some kind of reference to Scripture about biblical discipline that you dont agree with. Sproul Jr. should be enabled nor that he should be able to keep his job. Crickets. I was diagnosed with clinical depression at a young age. It wont. Based on his history I am sure he did it numerous times without getting caught. an invitation to share his/her story. Often it is tried multiple times. My biggest concern is that he'll give some time for the dust to settle and then weasel his way back into "ministry." Had he qualified and successfully completed all the requirements of the Drug Court Treatment Program he could have avoided a criminal trial altogether. That sounds very Mark Driscoll-ian. And its important to try. My thing has always been to understand that the addict is probably hurting others and thats not OK. (For readers that dont know Barbara, she and Jeff Crippen write over at the A Cry for Justice blog about domestic violence in the church.). More than likely his therapy is with someone lacking the qualifications, such as a pastor fan-boy giving him counseling. Also, it might be reasonable to assume that since Lisa didnt specifically state that RC Jr had an AA or CR sponsor hes probably not in an alky support group. It is great in this day and age with blogs etc. Two days into it, I called my doctor and begged him to take me off the blood thinners so I could take non-steroidal anti-inflammatories (Think ibuprofen). I didnt even over-eat. Preach it sister! Why does someone have to specifically endorse treatment for someone or something in order to confirm in your mind that they are not anti-treatment? But Im going to respond a little further. He was 78. Or just the general run of the mill people who support patriarchy (because its what they are used to being taught)? But he stopped going to AA and we realized he was drinking again. How his alcoholism is handled is a separate issue, I agree, from him being a jerk to people. This does not give any of us an excuse to walk in disobedience to the Lord as he has. His fowl testimony presumes a repeat performance. To me, its the better road than the kick them out approach. The purpose of Drug court is for those charged w felonies to be submersed in a rehab program for 1-1.5yrs and graduate with the Judge being the one sharing that persons story and how he/she has been redeem and will acclimate as a reformed person in society- its a big deal. Although no church is perfect, some have lousy ideas about caring. Anyway. I hope he will have the strength to remain clean. Yep. Neither the logical fallacy of ad hoc nor the fallacy of poisoned well should be hauled out and passed off as anything except what it is-fallacious reasoning. He regained his health, went to AA, extensive counseling and stayed sober. That doesnt mean there arent possibly a whole host of them out there. Sproul being terminated from his job for a litany of abuses and disqualifying behaviors. I turned 13 about a month after the wreck and felt like a freak! Christiane wrote: Why do you feel the need to assume things about people without asking? To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be infringed in any way. We have occasionally declined to publish a comment which uses the word codependent. That he should get treatment; and What may have not been apparent to you at the time is that RC Jr wasnt just driving recklessly with you in the car. I didnt say if they should be kicked out or not. If he Sproul gets clean and sober he will probably ditch many ideas that he used to justify including patriarchy. Hes like Driscoll and so many others. For many, if the self-med is alcohol or drugs or opioids, this requires medical help; and very likely psychiatric intervention and follow up also. She just soaked up the love in the very back and left each time. Julie Anne and I have each explained our thoughts on the topic of this alcoholic pastor multiple times. You are insisting on everyone saying treatment for alcoholics is the way to go (and I agree). By the way, you have posted before what area of medicine you worked in. Sproul Sr. will experience, Heres hoping Dees post will have such an impact on someone that they will resolve to. Ann Sproul of San Francisco, San Francisco County, California was born on January 25, 1931. Many Christians, including from other cultures and countries, incorporate alcohol just fine in their lives without any problems. This man needs help. It is natural for a father to want to protect a child from the consequences of their actions but at some point in time when the child keeps doing this the parent has let them experience the consequences. On the other hand if Sproul has bee covering up and protecting his son then maybe Sproul should be disqualified for protecting and covering. Under what circumstances did you become aware of alcohol abuse in these people-that might be a tip off. Any time Ive ever gone to a church, what normally happens is I attend a Sunday School class where a teacher raises some topic (not pertaining to alcoholism), then I go and sit in the large worship area where I listen to a rock band play. When he was stopped, the officer observed that Sproul needed support to walk, he swayed, mumbled and had a moderate smell of alcohol on his breath. Im convinced thats exactly what Mr. and Mrs. (Vesta) Sproul have done to their Precious. I dont say it out of ignorance or just speculation. I dont know if Wilsons church actively shames recovering alcoholics, but I have read numerous accounts of Sproul Jrs church doing so. He has had serious chronic abusive and unruly behavior for decades. :'(. Based on what Im seeing by other people here, who have left posts (other than the one person above who says RC Jr is gentle), the guy sounds abusive. This is not a hill to die on and one of the purposes of the blog is to understand the point of view of others. If he Sproul gets clean and sober he will probably ditch many ideas that he used to justify including patriarchy. I appreciate the kind words. It beat opioids for me. As long as he stays de-frocked and out of his victims' lives. I got to tell them, they were somewhat angry at me but there was a lot of emotions. I described this happening upthread. Will his wife? Addiction, rather than disease, is a better way to characterize alcoholism IMO. This is done to build up the body of Christ unto the maturity and the unity of the faith. Blog owners can run their blogs how they like. I did read your post, Daisy. 721 Smith Rd. I personally think I was a piece of crap uncle but thats me. Tolerable and safe is probably the best you can hope for. Perhaps she is basing it on much more than that. is someone who could benefit from Al-Anon too, for the family and friends of problem drinkers. Commercials always depict drinkers as so happy, having fun, etc. If that was the objective of RC Sproul Jr he should know its worked! Its one thing for churches to give crummy, harmful (medical / psychological) advice to people Answer: not that much so dial it back. Gail wrote: You and I differ on this, and I see no agreement between us on the issue of what is the rightful place of the church in such matters. You have my prayers. and me and she advocated that people with addictions be kicked out of church. I did not use the word divorce. Go back and read what I said. Gracious hostess, no doubt that its sin gone amok. I have observed and experienced this truth throughout my own life. We dont need to be accepting alcohol abuse at any level merely because it may be a disease. And they have people in their life who are honest with them and call them on it. And yes, we must continue to pray. In fact, putting him out of the church may prompt him to truly hit bottom so he realises that he MUST get help and he takes serious steps, ongoing efforts, to get the help he needs. As someone who was severely injured by a drunk driver (see bottom of the post), I dont appreciate your he who is without sin diatribe. Abuse is a different issue. And she showed that she had no clue what kinds of intervention should be done for an alcoholic (or substance abuser) in getting them into treatment and getting help for their spouse and children. Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? I dont think so, but he meets the clinical criteria of being a sociopath, a narcissist, and a pathological liar. He had two children in the car, and we could have been caught in a head-on collision at any time. Should you have been kicked out of church because you struggled with depression, anxiety, or any other problem? He instead cut them, crossing into the opposite lane right on the extreme point of blind curves. so ridiculous. If not again, according to Christ Jesus, Himself it would be appropriate for the local body to withdraw fellowship. I wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy, including my ex-pastor who did it to me (and the doctor before me and to the woman in finance before him) or the other horrible pastors/elders. The ceiling didnt come crashing down and God didnt scream from the rafters, Sinners, the lot of you! It causes me to stretch and to become more understanding. She couldnt help it that she forgot so quickly. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. To be Faire To Claire, I rather think she was denying, not creating, the correlation. That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. And again, Im very sorry for the barbs. I needed that sort of help. RC Sproul Jr Had therapy and continues to do so. I take her at her word. I feel as though I was being unjustly attacked by her. (Of course, I maintain that our coming to the particular clinic was a godsend, actually. 13. I agree with you that the judge probably ordered that Sproul Jr. go to some 12-step recovery meetings, as that is normal what the probation department would recommend in their report to the court. i think of my agnostic relatives. ), you assume that Barbara is against treatment and have gone on and on about your assumption without even fact checking. That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. Sproul Jr. and even his father Sr. Do you think that this is the best use of their contributions to give to Ligonier Ministries when they are used to support someone like R.C. Hopefully someone close to Lisa Sproul is following this thread and may encourage her to attend. So its simply not true that Everyone who knows him confesses how genuinely repentant. How can an unregenerate unrepentant un-remorseful drunkard be allowed to pass himself off as a member in good standing of any Bible believing church? She just didnt mention it, and she didnt need to. An argument stands on its own. We chose not to publish a comment (or comments?) There was no need for pushback, just as there was no need for you to wrongly assume that we are against treatment (which Barbara clarified above). I am glad that you survived and are ok. Sprouls case and how he should be treated, that I NEVER said. Nonsense. Jeff, I hear you, brother. Note, that process was taught by Christ Jesus for ANY believer. Were not mind readers. Sr. CAN cut off the paychecks. They also seem to be very kind and generous; not manipulative, etc. They should be more vivid. If she were an unbeliever it wouldnt matter. Hell become a sober endorser of patriarchy. This was a wake up call. 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